The poweraudio Forum is managed by a team of tallented administrators that have made it their mission to offer projects, schematics, designs and their advice free of charge. By making a small donation you can aid in the further development and running costs of this community. We thank you for the support!
Forumul Poweraudio este manageriat de o echipa de administratori talentati care au misiunea de a furniza proiecte, scheme, schite si sfaturi in mod gratuit. Facand o donatie, puteti sa ajutati la dezvoltarea si acoperirea costurilor de operare si dezvoltare a acestei comunitati. Va multumim pentru ajutor!

forumpoweraudio.ro

>> Bine ati venit pe forumul Poweraudio - Cel mai mare forum PROaudio din Romania <<
Acum este Joi Mar 28, 2024 1:40 pm


Ora este UTC + 2




Scrie un subiect nou Răspunde la subiect  [ 79 mesaje ]  Du-te la pagina Anterior  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Următorul
Autor Mesaj
 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Lun Noi 28, 2005 10:41 am 
Neconectat
User

Membru din: Dum Noi 20, 2005 10:31 pm
Mesaje: 2
anyone spoken to rog to see whether he'd be interested in participating?

_________________
what do you mean "can you turn it up?"


Sus
 Profil  
 


 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Lun Noi 28, 2005 10:42 am 
Neconectat
Director General 0766332366
Director General  0766332366
Avatar utilizator

Membru din: Joi Oct 27, 2005 7:33 pm
Mesaje: 19817
Localitate: La sediu
I thought he was gone to Tibet.... :shock:

_________________
ing. Mircea Bartic
Director general

Poweraudio Romania
Drumul Tarpiului, Nr.30, Bistrita, Jud. Bistrita-Nasaud
Telefon: 0766332366
E-mail: office@poweraudio.ro
www.poweraudio.ro
facebook.com/poweraudio.romania


Sus
 Profil  
 
 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Lun Noi 28, 2005 4:36 pm 
Neconectat
User
Avatar utilizator

Membru din: Mie Noi 16, 2005 8:18 pm
Mesaje: 60
MixMan X scrie:
Now I see Walt is in on this, I may well hold off building my Xtro's until I see what happens here.

depends what you are after i guess. for a stand alone mid top the x-tro must surely take some beating, this project is (hopefully) looking at getting that kind of performance to cover a much wider area by seamless arraying. i am kind of surprised that more people haven't built x-tros...

but yeah, that is why i keep harking on about arrayable trapezoids, there is already a kick arse stand alone all horn mid top, capable of devastating spl from a compact and not too challenging diy cabinet, the high mid horn is the only bit of it that requires compound mitres.

james.


Sus
 Profil  
 
 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Lun Noi 28, 2005 7:38 pm 
Hello,

A 3 way hornloaded top with very good neo drivers will be (very) expensive. It think for most people the cost of the X-tro is too high. But if you already have some decent suitable 15" drivers on hand you can save yourself a lot of money. 8" B&C midrange is relatively cheap and the B&C 1" driver is worth every penny, they just sound very good!

We have to realise that when going 3-way with double drivers in the mid/low section costs will be substantial. In that aspect Bill Fitzmaurice DR-horns offer a very cost effective solution.

Best regards,

Walt


Sus
  
 
 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Lun Noi 28, 2005 7:57 pm 
Neconectat
User
Avatar utilizator

Membru din: Mie Noi 16, 2005 8:18 pm
Mesaje: 60
hmm... price...

i personally don't think the x-tro is overly expensive. people are put off by the fact that it looks expensive for a mid-top, but they don't figure in how loud it can play or how low, then it starts to look quite cheap.

i really want to use neos for the weight (my poor spine!!!) and i think a dual driver will be necessary for the same reasons you used that configuration in the x-tro. the sights are being set high and we will have to pay for this performance, but there is no reason at all why we have to only make one cab design.

if there are people calling out for an easy build square box with budget drivers then that's cool, whilst i'm not interested in this myself i certainly don't begrudge it!

james.


Sus
 Profil  
 
 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Lun Noi 28, 2005 8:09 pm 
Hello,

The 'problem' is that working out the details is a very time consuming part of the design process. So if we can stay with one explicit design that would save a lot of work. Also small details may have a great impact on performance/sound so if there will be different models they all have to work very well.

I have worked with Funktion One from time to time and the Res5 cabinets can be placed tight to each other but the Res4 need a splay angle between them. My point is that when using two cabinets a side the nominal needed dispersion of each cabinet is probably so large that it will not be possible to place the cabinet stight to each other. That would require an extreme trapeziodal shape.

Also from cost point of view: if the design will be narrow dispersion and you need minimum 2-3 a side costs will be very high. We are also talking 1000-1500 people you could cover will loud sound with 2-3 cabinets a side. So the question raises if we need such a narrow dispersion cabinet. With the X-tro I tried to make a cabinet that could be used stand-alone and maximum two a side with a splay angle between them. I think most people only want to build two tops at first.

Best regards,

Walt


Sus
  
 
 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Lun Noi 28, 2005 8:25 pm 
Neconectat
Director General 0766332366
Director General  0766332366
Avatar utilizator

Membru din: Joi Oct 27, 2005 7:33 pm
Mesaje: 19817
Localitate: La sediu
good point Walt

myself, I will use just a piece/ side because of the gigs I curently do.

I have an idee

How about ve build a big horn loaded midbass cabinet (ind'st 's desgn looks nice) and then leave a empty space in the middle of the horn where the mid and hi horns will be.

depending of the coverage needed, we Will use the specific mid-high horn combo, but retain the original midbass horn

somenthing like interchangeable components :wink:

_________________
ing. Mircea Bartic
Director general

Poweraudio Romania
Drumul Tarpiului, Nr.30, Bistrita, Jud. Bistrita-Nasaud
Telefon: 0766332366
E-mail: office@poweraudio.ro
www.poweraudio.ro
facebook.com/poweraudio.romania


Sus
 Profil  
 
 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Lun Noi 28, 2005 8:37 pm 
Hello,

I think it is wise to keep the mid/high section in the upper part of the cabinet. If the mid/highs are positioned to low their sound will not reach the back of the audience. Or you really need a lot of bassbins below the tops.

Best regards,

Walt


Sus
  
 
 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Lun Noi 28, 2005 10:36 pm 
Neconectat
User
Avatar utilizator

Membru din: Mie Noi 16, 2005 8:18 pm
Mesaje: 60
Walt scrie:
Or you really need a lot of bassbins below the tops...

well, that's what it's for isn't it? i am thinking that whilst there might not be a vast number there are still quite a few diy mid tops designed to sit on small stacks in small venues with small audiences, there is not a mid top design out there to complement, say, tribe of munt's gargantuan pile of lab horns. playing outside to a big audience requires a beast of a top and a few of them to boot.

regarding cost, if you already spent several thousand on drivers and timber and a shed load of man hours on building a serious bass stack, you should be prepared to spend a bit on mid tops to go with it, just as you should realise that the amplifiers capable of driving such equipment will be very expensive. even a tatty second hand brand name horn top will likely still be far more expensive than a set of good neo drivers, why 'economise' here to the detriment of the performance goals?

i understand your point about having a single design to work on, it's just the agreeing on a design bit that's the problem.

james.


Sus
 Profil  
 
 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Vin Dec 02, 2005 1:47 am 
Interesting to see what people come up with on this one. My 2p's worth...

I'd vote for 15", 10" and 1.4" as the driver complement. That gives the maximum grunt in all the bandpasses. I usually run out of headroom on 1" for live applications (bands), so I'd take a bit of convincing that it would work well at max throttle (unless x'd over very high up like F1 do). I'd try and get the 10" up to 2k5 or above so the 1.4 is out of the pain zone tho'.

A single 15" may look a bit down on spl, but the array low mid gain compensates for that if more than one box is used. It may be that the 2x12" format works out better for single box applications, but it'll probably be more expensive and a bit heavier.

Keeping the box 8 ohms in all the bands makes it easy to array on minimum amplification.

For dispersion I'd vote for 55x25. It's wide enough to be just possible to get away with 1/side, but narrow enough to array 2 or 3. Whatever is chosen the dispersion has to stay as constant with frequency as possible, if it doesn't, arraying is hopeless. Narrower vertically is nice as then 2 rows are possible with bit of creative wood block action (I've seen this on 2 rows of Alpha with a batten under the back of the bottom box and a batten between the fronts of the 2 boxes - works well when stage stacking and the crowd is deep).

For freq range the box has got to get down to 100Hz-ish, or lower if at all possible. I can never get comfortable with systems that put much of the low male vocal range in the subs (things like alpha/c4 excepted - but even then only if the upper bass boxes are flown/stacked right next to the tops).

I don't think trap-shaped matters. Something like the d&b-style square box with cut-off back corners works great in practice, both acoustically and physically in transport and handling, and is going to be alot easier to build.

Weight is important - 50-60kg is a good target. Two people can shift and stack that weight of box very easily.

Decent drivers are a good thing. I can't see the point of putting a lot of time and effort into building speakers and then putting any old gash cheapo drivers into them.

Active xover is good, although a passive high mid/hf option is really useful in practice as a convenience option. This can be usually added in, even if the high mid/hf drivers aren't particularly aligned (e.g. Wavefront 8, KF650 etc.).

[Oops - when I read that back it looks like I'm speccing a modern version of the KF850. It wasn't deliberate, honest :? ]

I wonder how long until wood starts being cut?

Neil


Sus
  
 
 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Vin Dec 02, 2005 2:00 pm 
Neconectat
User

Membru din: Joi Noi 17, 2005 3:22 pm
Mesaje: 12
Localitate: Australia
Hi all, been looking at the various ideas and suggestions this project has inspired.

My take on a few aspects:

If you wanted a one box per side solution, it would be hard to beat the Xtro, and anything we develop here would probably offer no advantages. I was under the impression we wanted to develop something not currently catered for in a DIY design - true arrayablity.

For most venues, I would consider 90degrees dispersion optimum for a single box - 60 degrees is a little narrow for one box and a bit wide for two. With the rig currently available to me, if I get a show where only one box is needed, or the room is longer than its width, I will pick my 90degree boxes - if I need more spl, I stack two boxes vertically. If I need wider coverage, I array my 60degree boxes, but unfortunately they don't array all that well, hence the interest in this project.

The above mentioned 60degree boxes (12" + 2") weigh in at around 55kg, and even with two people, I consider these too damn heavy - I would be more comfortable with a target maximum of around 40kg or less.

I also echo Walt's suggestion of having the top end at the top of the box - not only for height to get over heads, but to allow another box to be stacked upside-down on top for additional spl and still allow the HF to sum coherently.

As far as a 10" for the mids go, while it obviously works for some manufacturers who can afford to have drivers OEM'd for their application, virtually ALL off-the-shelf 10" drivers are designed as woofers, NOT as dedicated midrange drivers, and as such don't have the neccessary characteristics to go high in a horn - I still haven't even seen an available 8" that would excel in this application.

It has also been suggested that a single 12" on the low end would not keep up with the mids. Whilst modelling real-world horns would suggest a lower sensitivity for the low-mid horn, it must also be considered that multiple boxes WILL overlap and couple within this band, bringing sensitivity up to a par with the hi-mid.

I will also repeat what I said earlier - a box designed for active crossovers won't neccessarily work with a passive crossover jammed in there. I love the sound of the Martin Wavefronts, but would not consider using a passive crossover on them.

Depending on delivery of a couple of 6" drivers, I hope make sawdust and take measurements within the next few weeks (few other projects to finish first).

Cheers
Graeme


Sus
 Profil  
 
 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Vin Dec 02, 2005 2:29 pm 
Neconectat
User
Avatar utilizator

Membru din: Mie Noi 16, 2005 8:18 pm
Mesaje: 60
many really good points there neil, have you got a layout in mind or are you just looking at the performance criteria of each component?

1.5" cd will be a tad more expensive, the object was i believe to get the high mid cone to play as high as 3k to enable crossing over to a 1" and leave enough of the vital headroom that you talked about, yes, like f1. the b&c de500 as opposed to the de250 will give you some more headroom whilst still preserving the high fidelity?

that in turn was the reason behind looking at a smaller cone than a 10" for the high mid, but a 10" would allow a nice short horn and guarantee some serious output, arguably necessary if you are trying to stretch horizontal dispersion to 55 degrees. phase plug geometry capable of extending output up to or beyond 3k may well be very difficult for the larger cone.

i personally want trap boxes with corresponding dispersion patterns for the safety and convenience of strapping tops together atop of subs and for the elimination of parallel walls in the horn flares. i understand the point about construction, truck packing and handling really ain't that bad with traps although obviously square boxes are easier. nevertheless for me those two arguments are enough reason to only consider a trapezoidal layout.

you can't count on the summing of adjacent cabinets for a design you plan to use stand alone.

i agree that there is no point in using "budget" drivers, for the same reasons.

8 ohms is good, don't forget we could keep that by using 16 ohm drivers for the low mids if there are two in parallel, but in todays environment of inexpensive 2 ohm stable amplifiers i am not so worried about that, but yeah, 8 ohms would be better.

for the reasons outlined in the passive crossover thread i really don't see a passive as a bolt-on goodie, my understanding of the physics is that if your drivers don't line up and you use a passive crossover you will have problems at crossover frequency, i just don't see how that can be avoided.

no higher than 100 Hz and lower if possible? a man after my own heart. i like that musical information to be hitting your face, not your chest, mid tops crossed too high lack "authority" in the delivery and sound like they are bolted onto the rig as opposed to belong to part of a symbiotic whole.

i like the idea of tight vertical dispersion when it comes to stacking two rows of mid tops with some cleverly engineered bits of wood setting up the inclination, as you suggest that is an excellent way of getting nice coverage to both the front and rear of a deep crowd.

50-60kg is where i had set my target also, i really don't like the idea of humping any more onto a bass stack.

as for making sawdust? who knows, probably not imminent though.

finally, and this is arguable of course, a tighter horizontal dispersion will only ever help in feedback rejection for live sound use.

james.


Sus
 Profil  
 
 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Vin Dec 02, 2005 3:41 pm 
Neconectat
User
Avatar utilizator

Membru din: Mie Noi 16, 2005 8:18 pm
Mesaje: 60
Centauri scrie:
If you wanted a one box per side solution, it would be hard to beat the Xtro, and anything we develop here would probably offer no advantages. I was under the impression we wanted to develop something not currently catered for in a DIY design - true arrayablity.

me and thee are singing from the same song sheet then, if i was walt i would be slightly miffed that people want to re-design his cab without having heard one in action. as i've said from the start, array, array, array.
Citat:
For most venues, I would consider 90degrees dispersion optimum for a single box - 60 degrees is a little narrow for one box and a bit wide for two. With the rig currently available to me, if I get a show where only one box is needed, or the room is longer than its width, I will pick my 90degree boxes - if I need more spl, I stack two boxes vertically. If I need wider coverage, I array my 60degree boxes, but unfortunately they don't array all that well, hence the interest in this project.

sounds perfectly logical to me, although i have found just using two stacked 40 degree dispersion mid horns to be just the ticket for long thin venues, there is application for 40 x 40 as a stand alone, every now and then.
Citat:
The above mentioned 60degree boxes (12" + 2") weigh in at around 55kg, and even with two people, I consider these too damn heavy - I would be more comfortable with a target maximum of around 40kg or less.

40kg, is it even possible? i picked up my 60kg work colleague earlier following this conversation, he is far too heavy to stack on one's own.
Citat:
As far as a 10" for the mids go, while it obviously works for some manufacturers who can afford to have drivers OEM'd for their application, virtually ALL off-the-shelf 10" drivers are designed as woofers, NOT as dedicated midrange drivers, and as such don't have the neccessary characteristics to go high in a horn - I still haven't even seen an available 8" that would excel in this application.

save for that 18 sound neo 10" midrange that is all i've come across too. the 6" from that series does look wonderful but horn length is now a big concern with regard to time aligning hf and high mid. there does seem to be a deficit in decent midrange cones.
Citat:
I will also repeat what I said earlier - a box designed for active crossovers won't neccessarily work with a passive crossover jammed in there. I love the sound of the Martin Wavefronts, but would not consider using a passive crossover on them.

quite.
Citat:
Depending on delivery of a couple of 6" drivers, I hope make sawdust and take measurements within the next few weeks (few other projects to finish first).

get in! what kind of dimensions are you looking at? most importantly length and mouth area...

james.


Sus
 Profil  
 
 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Vin Dec 02, 2005 5:54 pm 
Neconectat
User

Membru din: Dum Noi 27, 2005 5:43 pm
Mesaje: 3
Hello,

The X-tro is easy to build, goes very loud and sounds very good. I think it will have its market. A guy in belgium is using 2x X-tro a side with 4x Punisher on each side and 4 Punisher under stage. That makes for a total of 4x X-tro + 12x Punisher. I haven't heard this setup but he is very happy with it and says it pushes the air really well :D

Also if the design from this forum will look a bit like the X-tro I don't mind. The efficient internal layout of the X-tro makes for very little wasted space, if we can use this kind of layout for this project why not.

Best regards,

Walt


Sus
 Profil  
 
 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Vin Dec 02, 2005 10:43 pm 
Neconectat
User

Membru din: Joi Dec 01, 2005 11:12 pm
Mesaje: 2
james, ind.st scrie:
many really good points there neil, have you got a layout in mind or are you just looking at the performance criteria of each component?

1.5" cd will be a tad more expensive, the object was i believe to get the high mid cone to play as high as 3k to enable crossing over to a 1" and leave enough of the vital headroom that you talked about, yes, like f1. the b&c de500 as opposed to the de250 will give you some more headroom whilst still preserving the high fidelity?

that in turn was the reason behind looking at a smaller cone than a 10" for the high mid, but a 10" would allow a nice short horn and guarantee some serious output, arguably necessary if you are trying to stretch horizontal dispersion to 55 degrees. phase plug geometry capable of extending output up to or beyond 3k may well be very difficult for the larger cone.

i personally want trap boxes with corresponding dispersion patterns for the safety and convenience of strapping tops together atop of subs and for the elimination of parallel walls in the horn flares. i understand the point about construction, truck packing and handling really ain't that bad with traps although obviously square boxes are easier. nevertheless for me those two arguments are enough reason to only consider a trapezoidal layout.

you can't count on the summing of adjacent cabinets for a design you plan to use stand alone.

i agree that there is no point in using "budget" drivers, for the same reasons.

8 ohms is good, don't forget we could keep that by using 16 ohm drivers for the low mids if there are two in parallel, but in todays environment of inexpensive 2 ohm stable amplifiers i am not so worried about that, but yeah, 8 ohms would be better.

for the reasons outlined in the passive crossover thread i really don't see a passive as a bolt-on goodie, my understanding of the physics is that if your drivers don't line up and you use a passive crossover you will have problems at crossover frequency, i just don't see how that can be avoided.

no higher than 100 Hz and lower if possible? a man after my own heart. i like that musical information to be hitting your face, not your chest, mid tops crossed too high lack "authority" in the delivery and sound like they are bolted onto the rig as opposed to belong to part of a symbiotic whole.

i like the idea of tight vertical dispersion when it comes to stacking two rows of mid tops with some cleverly engineered bits of wood setting up the inclination, as you suggest that is an excellent way of getting nice coverage to both the front and rear of a deep crowd.

50-60kg is where i had set my target also, i really don't like the idea of humping any more onto a bass stack.

as for making sawdust? who knows, probably not imminent though.

finally, and this is arguable of course, a tighter horizontal dispersion will only ever help in feedback rejection for live sound use.

james.


Re: 10" for horn - quick look reveals the b&c 10MD26 - looks like a midrange driver for horn loading. RCF used to do the L10L750 that even has an inverted dustcap - I'm sure there are quite a few more given a bit of a look round.

Re: 1" - Well I've mixed on Wavefront 8 quite a bit (3k5 xover into DE25) and I _always_ get the hf amp up to clip/limit and there still isn't enough HF.

Re: 16 ohms, yes I was probably a bit hasty there - 16ohm high mids and HF can be useful. There's not such a good choice of drivers though, not everything is available as a standard part in 16.

I've designed loads of passive xovers (I have a full MLS speaker measurement setup) and it's generally possible to come up with something that works even if the drivers aren't well aligned - it's never going to be as good as a proper time-aligned active set up, but it can be made usable.

I didn't have a particular layout in mind, it's just observations based on the good and bad things of rigs I have mixed on and designing quite a few speakers myself.

Neil


Ultima oară modificat de nmcgann pe Sâm Dec 03, 2005 11:09 am, modificat 1 dată în total.

Sus
 Profil  
 
Afişează mesajele de la anteriorul:  Sortează după  
Scrie un subiect nou Răspunde la subiect  [ 79 mesaje ]  Du-te la pagina Anterior  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Următorul

Ora este UTC + 2


Cine este conectat

Utilizatorii ce navighează pe acest forum: Niciun utilizator înregistrat şi 6 vizitatori


Nu puteţi scrie subiecte noi în acest forum
Nu puteţi răspunde subiectelor din acest forum
Nu puteţi modifica mesajele dumneavoastră în acest forum
Nu puteţi şterge mesajele dumneavoastră în acest forum
Nu puteţi publica fişiere ataşate în acest forum

Căutare după:
Mergi la:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Translation/Traducere: phpBB România